what/who this forum is intended to serve

[Guest]

This forum is intended to be used by those interested in improving ethical standards, and enforcement standards for investors in Canada. Industry, regulators, legislators etc., can all stand to be improved in order to simply deliver a safe, fair and honest investment industry to Canadians.

What we have now is an investment henhouse run by investment foxes, and regulated by the fox's association. The politicians are being told by the foxes that all is well.

If you wish to help improve conditions for the public interest in this regard, please feel free to join in and share your experience, or stand on the shoulders of someone else and build on what they have experienced. It is hoped that a site such as this will allow abuses of individual investors to make their way to the public record, instead of being run over brushed aside and left in the ditch for dead by multi billion dollar companies and thier lawyers.

This site is not intended to be commerical, or investment tip related. If you are looking for or to share hot tips, or debate investment attributes, there are quite a few sites where this is the focus. Unless something is fraudulent, and promoted or allowed by those in positions to promote or allow same, this site is not interested. We seek not to further rumor nor slander, but to share factual examples or experiences that could and or should stand on the public record.

If you have comments on other uses for this site, or abuses which should be avoided, please feel free to post a reply...........just dont post a new topic for each and every comment, we are trying to narrow down the the things that matter most.
thanks
the advocate

[admin]

I have been advised to edit statements and comments that might trigger visits from legal people on the site. For this reason I will respectfully ask that comments be made based on facts, and not accusations. If what you are saying is true, then it is much harder to get us shut down. But if someone throws out a comment labeling another person a "thief" or some such name, it will likely cause some concern down the road. It is all to easy to slam someone, but we seek wherever possible, real examples, of real situations of abuse and wrongdoing here, and not to slander or defame anyone.

If you have only a thread of proof or example, and you are missing most of it, post what you know to be true, and can back it up, and likely someone else out there can fill in the blanks from their own experience. Remember, the big banks for one example have some tens of thousands of employees, and many of them know what goes on inside. It is not always what their mission statements say they do, and it wil come out eventually if we have a place to allow it.

[Lawyer]

You'll get a warning, and have enough time to remove an offending post before someone takes legal action. Less people will post if you edit and delete.

[Guest]

thanks for the heads up from the lawyer, but if I were running the forum, I would prefer to avoid people who sign in and throw flames or allegations at others while hiding behind anonymity. Seems like a rather chickenshit thing to do.

Would the forums not be better served by only attracting the type of submissions based on facts, and perhaps evidence, rather than people who like to call others names. The name calling thing should be left on the playground should it not?

If it became a forum for angry people to say, "john doe is a crook", and have another angry person respond by saying, "yes he is", what exactly have they accomplished besides some public venting of frustrations. Lets pull together and do a better job of correcting abuses, and let the angry boys club sign in elsewhere. Lets keep this forum more credible and professional.
that is my two bits worth

[admin]

adnin here, and I agree

this forum is not intended to be used to simply name call, nor do we wish to get involved in slander. We will gladly eliminate the angry element that would add nothing but bile, in favor of respect, credibility and facts that others can use to help improve things.................OK, so we cannot claim perfection on this or any other front, we at least can attempt to rid the forum of the worst and save it as a place for solid discussion and illumination of the issues we are interested in. I appreciate those of you with more level heads than mine who have pointed out to me the areas that were in need of pruning.

You cannot please everyone, all the time, so why bother hurting yourself trying.

Those passionate about improving the investment industry in Canada please keep up the helpful work. Those who wish a more lively setting can sign in at www.letsallrant.com

[Guest]

just looking over the forum topics, the site appears to be negative in tone

do you have any solutions, or just problems to present?

[admin]

you are right. When I look over it, it comes across as very negative, almost negative seeking.

I apologize for that, but in the spirit of walking before I can run, I hope to start by shedding light on wrongdoings. Why? Because politicians, regulators, and those involved in industry are fairly heavily vested, or invested right now in supporting the image that there is "nothing wrong" with the investment industry.

Everyone, right down to our good premier, to point out but one example, Ralph Klein, who travels to the United States etc., on trade missions would rather be of the opinion for example, that there is nothing wrong or smelly with the Alberta Securities Commission. So would the ASC. So would many firms who pay for the ASC. Etc., etc. Other examples by vested interest parties abound.

I don't agree, having seen so many investors abused by greedy advisors, and then abused over again, by regulators who refuse to regulate..etc. What I have seen amounts to "financial elder abuse", by the financial services industry overall.

My solution then, for the time being is to build a public venue where abuses can see the light of day until such time that there is some fairer level of balance between what industry participants speak about (highest ethical values, trust and integrity), and what actually happens (sales talk, commission compensatoin, misleading by commission or ommission in hopes of buying a new BMW every year for a few industry members who have achieved social psychopath or financial predator status).
\

I hope the solutions to doing things unethically then become self evident.

was that too much?

[admin]

In respnse to some crticism for what appeared to them to be hiding behind anonymity (the advocate name) another thought occured to me to help explain the use the advocate name

It was not intentional, but keeping it open, impersonal and without registration has helped to allow people to post on the site without identifying themselves for a couple of discovered benefits:

(truth be known I was too lazy to ever complete a registration process)

1. It does not allow personalities, positive, negative or otherwise to clash as I have seen ( and done myself) in some forums. The issues remain issues and not clouded by judgement of who the people are, where they come from etc. People cannot make negative labels or negative comments based on who you are and what you have or have not accomplished in life.

2. It allows anyone from the public at large, to employees of the ASC or OSC, to the prime minister to step in and have his or her say, without having to qualify it, or become embroiled in personal controversy by those who would rather engage in controversy.

3. It may allow some type of a "tip" site to develop where people can speak out without fear of retribution (no slander please) on issues that would otherwise be swept under the carpet.

4. Some of the issues are dangerous to comment on without having droves of corporate lawyers descend on your home, and remove your computer and some of your belongings

I should have called it Advocates Anonymous, in hindsight..........

Yes, there will be some angry, emotional and irrational comments, and I will have to be responsible for weeding them out. Many have already gone away after finding out they will be deleted if they cannot stick closer to the facts. It will never be perfect, nor will it please all, but I hope it sheds some light into the darker corners of the industry. Corners that need a broom taken to them.
cheers
the adocate

[urquhart]

investoradvocates.ca is a forum to share evidence of investor abuses and to collaborate on solutions to these investor abuse problems.

I suggest that we replace the current broken securities enforcement system in Canada with the following structure:
-a single national securities commission created for rule-making and policing functions applicable to a single securities act
-all current provincial securities commissions' rule-making and policing staff merged into this new single securities commission
-the IDA enforcement division to become a special unit of this new single securities commissionl; IDA reduces to lobbying association only
-a new securities administrative court created to replace all of provincial securities commissioners' hearings, IDA arbitrations and OBSI mediations, with two steps to every action:
(1) determination of securities violation, and
(2) assessment of damage remedy and costs
-the new securities administrative court should have special simplified procedures for cases of financial advisor securities law violations and restitution of individual investor losses
-RCMP, provincial police and local police should be given defined mandates and a defined system of referrals from the single national securites commission enforcement staff, when there is evidence of fraud
-introduce a clear process of regular independent auditing by the Federal Auditor General to ensure the investing public that there is integrity in the new single securities commission's enforcement procedures;
have the new single securities commission report to a a Standing Committee of the Federal House of Commons, as well as to the Federal Minister of Finance
-Have the new securitites administrative court report to the Federal Attorney General

There is a consensus for a single national securities commission amongst participants in the capital markets, including investors, the financial industry, and public corporations. The stumbling blocks are the provincial securities commissions' chairs and they have convinced their provincial ministers to support their preservation, except Ontario who wants a single securities commission. We individual investors can make life so difficult for the Provincial Ministers that they might rush to federal government responsibility for this hot potato.

[Guest]

We should be allowed to talk about individual securities ("stock talk") as well because issues important to investor advocates are connected to stocks, bonds and funds etc. If someone posts a bogus stock promotion members will quickly identify the scam as spam.

[admin]

sorry. While I appreciate your concerns about stock talk...........stock talk does not fit this site.

This site is called what it is because it is for investment industry advocates. Those who are expert enough, experienced enough and ethical enough to know what wrongs are happening in the industry against the unprotected public.........and willing to discuss and work together to improve them. That is the billion dollar question we seek to answer here.

To allow this cause to be diluted by discussions of whether Norcen is better than Noranda is certainly a thousand dollar question for some, perhaps more, but it belongs elsewhere.

Sorry We just cannot be all things to all people, but we can certainly try to be the best at what we choose to focus on.

Thanks for your suggestion however
the advocate

PS, try the motley fool site ot financialwebring site for many stock discussions

[Guest]

sorry. While I appreciate your concerns about stock talk...........stock talk does not fit this site.

No problem.

http://sirf.proboards49.com/

[admin]

unfortunately, I have had to ban the forums to one user. I had initially found some of his or her comments interesting and informative, but when they became hostile, unwilling to debate maturely, but more willing to name call and undertake personal attacks I felt I had to draw the line. Fortunately there has only been one such type of person.

You may from time to time see angry posts from someone, and I apologize for that. I am not yet willing to close the forums to all who are unregistered as I am finding some interesting and usefull comments from some folks who see things from a perspective other than that of investor advocates.
These forums are intended to encourage the exchange of ideas that might help benefit investors in Canada. Some will argue that things are just fine and they should stay the way they are. I am fine with any and all arguments if they are made in a mature, factual and reasonable manner. Beyond that I have no time to become part of someones internal anger.

Thanks for keeping in touch and for furthering the interests of the public.
cheers
The advocate

[admin]

Anyone is and will continue to remain welcome if they can state their case maturely and without resorting to name calling or other behavior best left to the schoolyard. You have failed to live up to these standards and you have become angrier and nastier with each post. It is time we parted company until you can deal with that. No one wants to tune into a place where angry people plug up the forum with name calling.

thanks

[admin]

it is kind of interesting to watch the lengths and depth to which we all will go (myself included) to make or win our points.

To watch the industry over the last twenty years, I believe I have found a great deal of lying, misprepresenting, and misinformation in the name of making people wealthy.

Myself and other people (advocates or industry critics) have come to this opinion independant of each other, and now some of our arguments are being attacked as being one sided or slightly skewed at times. No doubt this could be true.

Now we have the critics of the critics stepping into the ring, suggesting that the industry critics are at times misrepresenting or misleading.......................and in thier "passion" to win the argument or win the point, they themselves are stepping over the lines of proper behavior, while they criticise advocates for stepping across the line, while the advocates criticise industry for stepping across the line.

Sorry for everyone who finds this childish, boring or unproductive. We will continue to strive for convincing the public that what we speak of is true, and we will all probably be guilty of excess in these efforts at times. I hope I can at least try and remember myself that I am working towards improving the integrity and the reputation of the industry and how it serves the public while all the schoolyard taunting goes on. Lets all please try and post verifiable known facts, and again, not flames or personal attacks. I will try and live up to this myself. Please tell me when I, or anyone does not.